@matrix @element thats a really unnecessarily terse reply Matrix (Matthew?) You chose by your own process to set up a booth at a police convention to attract police to use your services. You could have simply not made that decision. Yes there is other software that has gone down this path. does that mean I or other community members support that decision? no it does not.
@matrix @element also the internet came from millions of people pouring their hearts and souls into working on something they love. the internet did not come from getting funding from police. sure there are parts of the internet that have been funded by government agencies who I wish would cease to exist. have I spent time fighting that too? yes. yes I have.
@amatecha @matrix @liaizon https://element.io/blog/the-online-safety-bill-an-attack-on-encryption gives an idea of our position. And no, there are no backdoors. Yes, we fund Matrix dev by selling encrypted messaging to governments, which includes police: if you don’t like that then please feel free to use a different app.
Matrix was funded by Protocol Labs (IPFS, Filecoin crypto) and by the guy that started Skype and Kazaa.
It is well known from Snowden docs (and earlier!) that Skype had a government backdoor.
Kazaa was also loaded with spyware.
Matrix is institutionally compromised.
@jebba @aral @jalcine @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon A claim that Matrix is "insitutionally compromised" needs much better evidence than what you're providing to be taken seriously. Matrix is an open protocol and Element is fully #FOSS. The fact that one of the many investors also invested in some garbage software doesn't mean that Matrix is compromised.
@jebba @aral @jalcine @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon Matrix was created & initially funded at Amdocs. When funding got cut, creators started a company which became Element. You may disagree w/ what Element does as a company, but Matrix (protocol) is #FOSS. U can review homesevers' code, u can review spec, u can even review Element apps' code, & u can use other 3rd party clients w/o touching Element. Ur friends & enemies use FOSS. That's what it means to be free & open. Anyone can use it.
Yes, I understand all that.
I also understand who funds and partners with a company affects their priorities.
I can look at their code, but they are institutionally compromised which will affect their decisions.
Also, earlier someone mentioned the investor--he was founder of dodgy apps too, not just money.
Want to know a group, see who they work with.
@jebba You're conflating Element and Matrix. Matrix is managed by Matrix Foundation, which has "guardians" that are not part of Element. If Matrix is institutionally compromised then every single #FOSS is compromised, too, because they do what other FOSS do. No more, no less.
@viktor @jebba As a tiny org that makes #FOSS and doesn’t and wouldn’t peddle our wares at police conferences or work with them (as we’ve made sacrifices to enable us to keep working on building things for *people* not *enterprises/governments*), I reject that statement. We’re living proof that it’s not true. And I like to think we’re not the only ones. FOSS !== enterprise software !== a total lack of ethical standards in who you are funded by (and thank fuck for that).
@aral @jebba #FOSS is for everyone, including enterprises & govs. That's the nature of open & free. Like it or not. What Element does is their business & I can't comment on their biz strategy. What's important here is to not conflate Element & Matrix. Matrix is a protocol managed by Matrix Foundation. If you don't like Element providing some funding to the foundation, you probably should stop using every FOSS out there as most received funding from questionable orgs, govs & individuals 🤷
@viktor @jebba OK, Viktor, clearly this is the hill you’ve chosen. We disagree profoundly and there isn’t time in the world to argue with everyone who defends a broken status quo. #FOSS licenses may lack ethical safeguards but that doesn’t mean that the organisations we build and the tools we design must do so too. We can layer ethical principles on top (e.g., https://small-tech.org/about/#small-technology) instead of proudly embracing its rampant exploitation by corporations/governments as a feature.
Sure, I can *look*. Very few people can understand it well enough to find a backdoor or a vulnerability. The US' NSA put a vuln in a FOSS symmetrical encryption algorythm and no-one found it for *years*.
cops kill marginalized people and beat and kill peaceful protestors. interfacing with them, selling them a product, is collaboration in their murderous violence
@milan @flbr @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon They certainly did. But unless you are an encryption expert, we have to take the security of their product on trust. And being funded by governments means I, personally, don't trust them. I don't think that's unreasonable, and I think a lot of folks here feel the same.
@element I understand the decision and support you guys. It takes real money and effort to build something so secure that even the government and police wants to use it, and some pople simply wont understand it. Congratulations to the whole team.
@amatecha @matrix @element This is literally the worst possible position you could take on the issue. In a world where surveillance and police violence are constantly encroaching on human freedoms, advertising your services to cops is wildly problematic.
The goodwill you have fostered with the open source, privacy, and decentralized communications communities is rapidly going down the toilet, and will dry up completely if you don't change course. For a lot of people, it may already be gone.
@element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon You do realize that for many of us, the issue is not only "are there backdoors" or "will there ever be", but also "do you have the social maturity to recognize the pain and suffering the police causes everywhere around the world, especially towards minority groups". And right now, it looks like you don't, because else you wouldn't thoughtlessly use your cooperation with the police for marketing.
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