So with @matrix and @element explicitly supporting cops and fascist governments what does that mean for their and our anarcho future?

@liaizon @element whatever you do, don’t look at where the Internet or Tor came from… 🤫

@matrix @liaizon @element Err.. what? So like.. what's your attitude going to be when you get served with secret orders to create backdoors in Matrix? Or has that already happened, thus the apparently-already-established alignment with that side of the fence?


@amatecha @matrix @liaizon gives an idea of our position. And no, there are no backdoors. Yes, we fund Matrix dev by selling encrypted messaging to governments, which includes police: if you don’t like that then please feel free to use a different app.


That's a horrible hill to die on, and I can't ever again in good faith recommend or support y'all. Thanks for spitting in the face of millions.

@amatecha @matrix @liaizon


Like this makes you no better than the corporations that promote abusive forms of communication y'all are allegedly against (or I guess not?)

@amatecha @matrix @liaizon

@jalcine Wait, they’re against corporations? This VC-funded corporation is against corporations? And there I thought they were just another enterprise software company.

@element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon

@aral @jalcine @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon

Matrix was funded by Protocol Labs (IPFS, Filecoin crypto) and by the guy that started Skype and Kazaa.

It is well known from Snowden docs (and earlier!) that Skype had a government backdoor.

Kazaa was also loaded with spyware.

Matrix is institutionally compromised.

@jebba @aral @jalcine @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon A claim that Matrix is "insitutionally compromised" needs much better evidence than what you're providing to be taken seriously. Matrix is an open protocol and Element is fully #FOSS. The fact that one of the many investors also invested in some garbage software doesn't mean that Matrix is compromised.

@jebba @aral @jalcine @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon Matrix was created & initially funded at Amdocs. When funding got cut, creators started a company which became Element. You may disagree w/ what Element does as a company, but Matrix (protocol) is #FOSS. U can review homesevers' code, u can review spec, u can even review Element apps' code, & u can use other 3rd party clients w/o touching Element. Ur friends & enemies use FOSS. That's what it means to be free & open. Anyone can use it.


Yes, I understand all that.

I also understand who funds and partners with a company affects their priorities.

I can look at their code, but they are institutionally compromised which will affect their decisions.

Also, earlier someone mentioned the investor--he was founder of dodgy apps too, not just money.

Want to know a group, see who they work with.

@jebba You're conflating Element and Matrix. Matrix is managed by Matrix Foundation, which has "guardians" that are not part of Element. If Matrix is institutionally compromised then every single #FOSS is compromised, too, because they do what other FOSS do. No more, no less.

@viktor @jebba As a tiny org that makes #FOSS and doesn’t and wouldn’t peddle our wares at police conferences or work with them (as we’ve made sacrifices to enable us to keep working on building things for *people* not *enterprises/governments*), I reject that statement. We’re living proof that it’s not true. And I like to think we’re not the only ones. FOSS !== enterprise software !== a total lack of ethical standards in who you are funded by (and thank fuck for that).


@aral @jebba #FOSS is for everyone, including enterprises & govs. That's the nature of open & free. Like it or not. What Element does is their business & I can't comment on their biz strategy. What's important here is to not conflate Element & Matrix. Matrix is a protocol managed by Matrix Foundation. If you don't like Element providing some funding to the foundation, you probably should stop using every FOSS out there as most received funding from questionable orgs, govs & individuals 🤷

@viktor @jebba OK, Viktor, clearly this is the hill you’ve chosen. We disagree profoundly and there isn’t time in the world to argue with everyone who defends a broken status quo. #FOSS licenses may lack ethical safeguards but that doesn’t mean that the organisations we build and the tools we design must do so too. We can layer ethical principles on top (e.g., instead of proudly embracing its rampant exploitation by corporations/governments as a feature.

@aral @jebba If FOSS licenses had ethical safeguards they would not be FOSS. As much as I hate to say it, if you want to limit access to FOSS based on your ethical standards then you don't support FOSS. That's a hill I will die on, because that's what it means to be free and open.

@viktor @jebba @aral @jalcine @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon "You can look at their code" is not really a thing for encryption.

Sure, I can *look*. Very few people can understand it well enough to find a backdoor or a vulnerability. The US' NSA put a vuln in a FOSS symmetrical encryption algorythm and no-one found it for *years*.

@jalcine @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon

How is this a spit to the face? Are you confusing them selling their product as them selling our encrypted messages?

@IlIlIlIl @jalcine @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon it's who they're selling to, but you know that. that's why you left it out of your post.

cops kill marginalized people and beat and kill peaceful protestors. interfacing with them, selling them a product, is collaboration in their murderous violence

@element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon Congratulations on the absolute worst incident management procedures since Raspberry Pi.

@element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon how... is that ever a position you find yourself defending? It's not like there are no other options for funding; I'm sure the community would rather pay for development costs than potentially have their messages sold to governments and police?

@element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon and also what's the point of your products *other* than privacy? Is secure messaging not the sole niche your services allegedly fill, and if not... what is?

@flbr @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon "The community" will not be able to come up with the amount of money that governments will spend on this. Face it: without governments, Matrix/Element would be bankrupt by now.

@flbr i think they wrote about the messaging service they sell/host, not messages of users @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon

@milan @flbr @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon They certainly did. But unless you are an encryption expert, we have to take the security of their product on trust. And being funded by governments means I, personally, don't trust them. I don't think that's unreasonable, and I think a lot of folks here feel the same.

@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] Communities don't pay. They just don't.

Curl is one of
the most used open source projects and they get basically nothing. It's insane.

@element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon :marseyglow2: :marseyglow: :marseyspyglow: :marseyfedpostglow: :marseynotesglow:
@element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon hello! does matrix sell all encrypted messaging across the entire protocol, or all encrypted messaging in the "" sphere?
@colonelj @element @matrix @amatecha @liaizon I think they meant "messaging" as a service (to exchange messages), not the actual messages.
So I don't think they're sending your encrypted messages to the police.
@colonelj @element @matrix @amatecha @liaizon they don't sell data nigger they sell services and help govs set up their own matrix servers
@meticore @colonelj @element @matrix @amatecha @liaizon 170 governments are Jewish Corporations

They are not sovereign, legal or moral

Then again ((( MATRIX ))) is Jewish creation by ex mossad people

The truth is International COMMON LAW Exists and overwrites local corporate ((( STATE GOVERNMENT))) LAW
@charliebrownau @colonelj @element @matrix @amatecha @liaizon >Then again ((( MATRIX ))) is Jewish creation by ex mossad people
If its FOSS, can be selfhosted it doesnt matter who made it, you use shit made by kikes every day by being on the internet
@charliebrownau @amatecha @colonelj @element @liaizon @matrix alsso before the XMPP schizo shills come in I'd just like to point this out
>Who uses XMPP?
>Google use it for their Google Cloud Messaging. Facebook use it for Facebook Chat integration. NATO use it for tactical chat. Thousands of companies use it for their enterprise instant messaging. Millions of devices use it to interconnect. The IETF use it in their meetings. One of our Board members uses it to talk to his mother.

@element I understand the decision and support you guys. It takes real money and effort to build something so secure that even the government and police wants to use it, and some pople simply wont understand it. Congratulations to the whole team.

@amatecha @matrix @element This is literally the worst possible position you could take on the issue. In a world where surveillance and police violence are constantly encroaching on human freedoms, advertising your services to cops is wildly problematic.

The goodwill you have fostered with the open source, privacy, and decentralized communications communities is rapidly going down the toilet, and will dry up completely if you don't change course. For a lot of people, it may already be gone.

@element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon You do realize that for many of us, the issue is not only "are there backdoors" or "will there ever be", but also "do you have the social maturity to recognize the pain and suffering the police causes everywhere around the world, especially towards minority groups". And right now, it looks like you don't, because else you wouldn't thoughtlessly use your cooperation with the police for marketing.

@scy @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon Well said. The way they argue right now sounds really... let's call it "white male westerner". It's disgusting, specifically these days.

Their priorities in feature development make more sense though given these connections.

@element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon There was literally a whole god damn valley full of differently sized hills to die on, and you chose this one?

You should consider more focus in your Twitter account with that attitude. The police-lovers are over there.

@element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon i guess this is one of those “when people tell you who they are, believe them” moments

@element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon

we fund Matrix dev by selling encrypted messaging to governments

What does this mean, exactly? I assume #E2EE #Matrix messages are safe?

@element @matrix @liaizon Def not the direction I expected for this software that used to be called "Riot". Unfortunately IMO I don't think you can realistically directly market services to police and simultaneously develop secure comms software for activists and at-risk people, or people suffering authoritarian/oppressive regimes, etc. It really is one or the other. It might not be that way to you, but it is for soooo many people who are careful about who/what they trust.

@amatecha @element @matrix @liaizon
NDN, RSA, and Tor all either originate from or have been marketed for the military. I don't think it makes sense to categorically refuse to use anything that was developed for cops.

@aral Relevant part from their blog post was:

"... those monoliths at least have the resources to contest decisions. As a smaller UK-headquartered secure communication startup, that’s not a luxury Element has."

Good luck to small companies. 😓

@elliot @element @amatecha Although, of course, IRC is not encrypted so a very different use case.


If you can trust the police, who can you trust?
- Exploited.

@aral @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon Poor choice of words. Element is selling their services to governments, including police. They're not selling your personal messages.

@aral @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon right, it is much better to let government institutions use proprietary walled gardens like Teams or Slack? Products where we aren't in control of our data at all.

Our tax money should be spend on open source solutions that improve privacy, communication and security for all of us.

Element is doing the right thing here and it is hard to understand how you can't see that. It is like you didn't read the article or understand what they are doing at all.

@mdv @element Oh yeah, I’m sure the folks arrested for protesting the coronation in the UK would have been far happier if they knew the police used open source software.


#matrix #element #police #acab #privacy #messaging #humanRights

@aral @element these two things are not really related in anyway right.

In fact, the German police might even agree with the protester here (as do I btw), with Germany being a republic and all.

Unfortunately there are still some very questionable laws active in Europe like lese-majesty. And even more questionable laws being added like the UK encryption law. Integration of open software can certainly help in the end, like Element writes in the last paragraph. I just hope you haven't given up.

@aral @mdv @element would you mind elaborating on that?

I'm welcoming that governments are using secure FOSS but I can't see where backdoors are involved in your link.

@antifarben @mdv @element I’m not sure who mentioned any backdoors but it wasn’t me. They’re working with the cops. That’s enough for me.

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